Who’s kennel name should go on the dog? [Archive]

Elaine

02-17-2009, 05:43 AM

I tend to think that the kennel name of the dog should reflect who bred the dog, i.e. who actually conceived the idea of the breeding and had an ownership interest in the bitch at the time the litter was bred and whelped.

I am not fond of adding "v. So-and-so" (i.e., the purchaser’s kennel name) tagged at the end of the dog's registered name. For example, we did not breed Lii' Claire, she was a stud fee puppy. The breeder tagged "v. Logres" to the end of her name -over my objection - as a token of his affection for us at the time. While it’s true that we agreed to the breeding, paid to have Claire’s dam shown by Kelly Marquis, paid for progesterone testing for Claire’s dam, paid to collect and ship semen to the breeder and otherwise turned ourselves inside out for the breeding, we were not the breeders of the litter. I think the name should reflect who bred the dog, we did not bred Lil' Claire.

Years ago, before we had online pedigree data bases where we could search out accurate pedigrees, people used to register dogs they purchased in their kennel names to sort of take credit for the dog. Never made a lot of sense to me back then, and in 2009 it makes no sense at all to put one’s kennel name on a dog you did not breed and in some instances, do not even own.

What do you all think?

Lou's mom

02-17-2009, 07:17 PM

I tend to think that the kennel name of the dog should reflect who bred the dog, i.e. who actually conceived the idea of the breeding and had an ownership interest in the bitch at the time the litter was bred and whelped.

I concur.

If I'm following the AKC rules correctly, one may now/soon register a puppy with a different name than the one given by the breeder; how would I then later know where that animal came from if the subsequent owner bred it & didn't provide pedigree papers?

It'll make it very hard to keep track of who is who and where they came from...

Elaine

02-17-2009, 08:49 PM

Ain't AKC fun? Always thinking of creative new ways to screw breeders over?

The rule used to say, “No change in the name of a dog registered with the American Kennel Club will be allowed to be made.”

Now the Rules Applying to Registration and Discipline, Amended to April 1, 2008. CHAPTER 3 REGISTRATION, SECTION 7. says:

The name of a dog registered with The American Kennel Club will be allowed to be changed provided the dog was whelped in the United States and in cases where the breeder(s) first individually registered the dog, their written consent would be required. A dog name containing a Registered Kennel Name cannot be changed without the written consent of the owner(s) of that Registered Kennel Name. However, no change in the name will be recorded by The American Kennel Club after the dog has produced or sired an AKC registered litter or received an award at an AKC licensed or member event. Any name change must comply with all AKC requirements.

SO, I guess if you own an animal that has never been bred, and has not won an award (a pt.) at an AKC event, you can change the name of the dog, take the breeder's name off of the dog, pretty much do whatever you please... re-register the dog as "I Screwed the Breeder Of This Dog Good" or whatever floats your boat, then show the dog, breed the dog and have a merry old time.

Other than the AKC making an extra few bucks re-registering dogs, I do not see any need for this rule change.

Hey, what am I talking about??? Think of the possibilities. We can change Lil Claire's name to whatever suits us.

Logres' Whatever Suits Us... has a nice ring to it. Or maybe, Logres' Getting The Last Word.

Kissntell

02-17-2009, 09:27 PM

Puppy "blue slips" or registration forms can be whited out and changed.

Therefore, I usually registar all the puppies myself, in my name with what I want to name them, and then sign the back, as the transfer of ownership. That pretty much writes it in stone.

I don't mind giving credit to the breeder with their name on the dog. I have heard some say that it promotes their kennel. But the bottom line is, you own the dog, and make the decisions, if you own the dog clear. Of course I would do the right thing with the dog and place it correctly if I had to.

I have been very hesitant to co-own when buying in that there is often problems in this area. I've seen many co-owns go bad over the years.

But now days, the way things are, I think that if I breed a litter, I will only offer co-own until things set at least.

I can understand the protection co-own affords the breeder; but, often those co-owns don't come with a liveable partnership of which I would like to live with as the buyer.

I guess you really have to feel real good and confident that you are getting what you really want in the deal as a knowledgeable breeder.

Kissntell

02-17-2009, 09:31 PM

I agree the breeder only should be on the kennel name. Afterward, when puppies are bred that can change. But the name belongs to the breeder in my book.

Elaine

02-17-2009, 10:25 PM

... I usually registar all the puppies myself, in my name with what I want to name them, and then sign the back, as the transfer of ownership. That pretty much writes it in stone.

Not anymore!!! The name of a registered dog can be changed now. For example, we individually register each of our puppies. When we sell the puppy it has its AKC registered name on its AKC Registration papers. I am referring to the white slip, not the blue slip. This new AKC Rule allows the new owner to change the REGISTERED NAME of the dog. The only way a breeder can protect the name is to have won a point on the dog, or some other award before it is sold.. or keep the dog unitl it produces offspring.

Lou's mom

02-18-2009, 12:24 AM

The only way a breeder can protect the name is to have won a point on the dog, or some other award before it is sold.. or keep the dog unitl it produces offspring.

That must be it. I forsee AKC puppy agility: tunnelers will be a hit! :p

dobesign

02-18-2009, 07:17 AM

Another downside to co-ownership is that you become liable for the actions of the dog. So, if you place a puppy and co-own it, and it lives in Timbuk Two or Roswell or something and you live on Mars, if that dog runs down the street and scares the snot out of someone (or worse) you are as legally responsible for that dog as is the lives-with-the-dog owner. There's a lot safer way to have control of the dog's life...it's not just about who's name goes where.

Elaine

02-18-2009, 07:35 AM

And, if the one of the co-owners gets suspended by AKC… the dog is ineligible to compete until the suspended co-owner signs off.

If you remember the Sam and Marion Lawrence’s great Wire Terrier - CH. Registry’s Lonesome Dove, back in the 1990’s, she had something like 210 Best In Shows… one of the All Breed Top Winning Dogs of all time. Well Lacy’s sire, Ch. Galsol’s Excellence was caught in the Bill McKay scandal and could not sire AKC registerable puppies for years. Peter Green hired Gladstone to get the dog back in Peter’s name, but it took years and years. By then Galsols Excellence was rather old. He basically missed a huge part of his contribution to the breed because of the problems one of the co-ownrs had with AKC.

Here's an article about Lacy from early in her career. Many of "the Great People in Dogs" called her the best they'd ever seen.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE7DA123DF93BA35751C0A9659582 60

Sonquest

02-18-2009, 08:16 AM

Rules Applying to Registration and Discipline, Amended to April 1, 2008. CHAPTER 3 REGISTRATION, SECTION 7. says:

The name of a dog registered with The American Kennel Club will be allowed to be changed provided the dog was whelped in the United States and in cases where the breeder(s) first individually registered the dog, their written consent would be required. A dog name containing a Registered Kennel Name cannot be changed without the written consent of the owner(s) of that Registered Kennel Name. However, no change in the name will be recorded by The American Kennel Club after the dog has produced or sired an AKC registered litter or received an award at an AKC licensed or member event. Any name change must comply with all AKC requirements.

IF I am reading correctly, once a breeder registers an individual puppy, the breeder would have to give written consent in order for the name to be changed.

Elaine

02-18-2009, 11:50 AM

You are right, it does say that.

Thought I'd read about a recent dispute where a name was changed and the breeder later denied giving consent. Have to look around for the details. At the very least the rule opens the door to new disputes... which we all know the AKC is poorly equiped to deal with.

Back in 1986 (under the old rule) the AKC changed the name of a dog I had bred, to a name without my kennel name, without my knoweldge or consent. I was standing ringside and saw a dog I'd bred, owned and registered - in the ring being shown under a totally different name. Contacted the AKC... sure enough, they had changed the registered name of the dog to one that no longer even had Logres on it. It had a different kennel name on it all together. The AKC said they were sorry. Asked what I wanted them to do about it.

I think the rule should be NO CHANGE in the Registered name of a dog, and NO CHANGE should mean NO CHANGE. I do not see any good reason for changing a dog's registered name. :)

Kissntell

02-18-2009, 12:51 PM

I read that the breeder must give written consent if the dog is already registared.

As to the co-ownerships:

I have heard that if there is a dog bite than all owners are responsible. I also hear that the dog's owner is considered the one whom the dog is domicled with. However, I would think, if there were a law suit liablity they would go after all owners.

This is something that I have heard from some other breeders. That they do not want a co-ownership due to the liability becoming joint.

Does anyone know anything about that as well? Because, quite frankly, anyone who says their dog will never do such and such, is naieve. I spoke with an attorney once who warned me not to put up Beware of Dog signs because if something happens, you are admitting that you have a vicious dog according to the law.

Therefore, if you put up No Tresspassing signs, you are changing liability, in that you now make that person a tresspassor, and in that tresspass they got bit. I must add that he said there is also an issue of age of accountability and the golden age of 12 pluss the person's ability to read.

I have No Tresspassing signs up in both Spanish and English to try and change that one piece. It sure keeps the salesmen and religions away that helps.

Kissntell

02-18-2009, 12:54 PM

Sorry Elaine, I didn't see your above post.

doberdogsfd

02-18-2009, 07:39 PM

I went to the rules update and looked at it too. The breeder has to agree so the breeder is afforded a measure of protection at least for now. I almost had a heart attack when I thought that someone could just change the names we have picked out. We put a lot of work into those names. I think they are trying to work in a safety valve for someone who is not that concerned about the name and wants to give permission to the new owner to change the name.

Just my 2 cents,

Bob

andyhilt27

02-18-2009, 08:21 PM

I believe that putting "von such and such" or "v. such and such" would show that they did their research in their breeding program.

Let's face it, it takes a bit of time to decide what you are going to breed for and choosing an addition is just as time consuming as paring two dogs together.

doberdogsfd

02-18-2009, 10:44 PM

I am not sure how putting some other persons kennel name at the end of one's own breeding proves anything about research. It give credit to someone who was not up all night, did not lay out the money, time commitment, stud fee, etc. In my opinion what s bred by Cheryl and me will carry Blackwood and only Blackwood. If you want your name on a dog breed a litter. Too many breeders expect that their name get attached so they can claim credit for something they probably had nothing to do with. I fully agree with Elaine on this point.

Bob
~Blackwood~

Elaine

02-19-2009, 06:16 AM

Had to re think this a bit… I’m sure we’ve all seen dogs over that years that were merely kennel names strung together, something like Ch. Van Alstyne’s, DeRoulet of Greyhaven. No question but that there are some folks in dogs who truly work together to breed and show dogs. They seem to share breeding decisions and the responsibilities of putting forth the next generation. In Dobermans, an example that comes to mind is the group of Phil Martin, Cheryl Green and Lana Snyderman-Berg. So, in some instances adding “v. Mykennel makes sense. I think that the dog’s registered name should reflect the person or group who brought the dog into existence (i.e., the registered name should reflect who conceived of the breeding combination and put their time, effort and resources into producing the litter). I think that once the dog is registered, the registered name should not be changed.

But since it is now an option… requiring just a signature, are any of you any good at forgery? :D

doberdogsfd

02-19-2009, 08:18 AM

Elaine,

You make a great point here. I think in a case like your example, where it is an alliance and partnership all parties should be represented because all parties are involved. Cheryl and I would put the v. whomever in that case. I like these kind of threads because they make you think reassess things. The dialog on a topic like this is good.

Bob
~Blackwood~

andyhilt27

02-19-2009, 06:44 PM

dobesign

02-19-2009, 09:18 PM

Let's consider if a bitch is co-owned by three kennels. Then someone who is getting a puppy as a stud fee. I would think it not only justifiable but also right to have puppy named x's y z von blah blah. It would reflect a group working together. If E1 bred a dog that I raised and live with but it was campaigned by someone with a kennel, then we decide to breed the bitch to a dog in return for a bitch (please note I did not include the word "pick" here), then why NOT have everyone fly their banners on the hopeful? Now, if you add "von jones" to that cuz it makes it look like you know what you are doing, then I understand. But honestly, who would sell to a person of the low a caliber? That's pet shop/newspaper sales. Tacky. Very tacky. I dunno about you guys, but I screen a bit better than that. If they need to change a dog's name, and YES I did it because I had a stalker that knew how to connect a catalog entry with an address (and I had to have my name change at the same time), THAT I would understand. But I asked for the breeder's consent first, even though AKC was mandated to follow the court order. People that change dog names need to have stipulations, and in fairness to the breeder, they should be strictly followed. Just my opinion...

Elaine

02-20-2009, 07:06 AM

No one here does their homework on buying a puppy for their breeding programs? The translation of von is "of" or "from". Placed at the end of a registered name it is simply stating, in my opinion, "We picked he or she out and they fit well into our breeding program." "We did our homework, pedigree research and the like."

You place a good deal more importance on the value of “homework” than I do. No doubt you will find like-minded breeders out there who will let you add your name to their dog, but we do not allow buyers to put their name on the dogs we breed.

Breeding can be a collaborative effort, in which case there may be more than one kennel name on the dog, but that is not common. I may add a name as a gesture of my respect for the contributions of others, but in general, at this point in time, after over thirty years in dogs, when I bred the bitch, and own, house, train and show her, choose the sire, do the breeding, whelp and raise the litter, put in the time, blood, sweat and tears, and foot the bill for the whole thing, there is no way in hell the dogs I breed will carry anyone else’s "v. I Bought This Dog." The dogs Logres produces will carry Logres to reflect our contribution to the breed (not who owned the dog). The dogs that descend from our dogs can carry the owner's names in the next generation, to reflect the owner's contribution to the breed.

About protecting kennel names, most every kennel name has duplicates out there somewhere, they usually fade into nothing. A kennel name tells us who bred the dog. I am proud of the dogs we breed and would never put another kennel name on a dog I bred, nor would any breeder I respect. No credible breeder would waste a generation by putting someone else's name on the dog they bred, but sure, some low-life could do that. But what would be the point?

The fact is that very few breeders breed enough volume each year to bother with the expense of registering their kennel name with AKC. So most kennel names are vulnerable to being appropriated. For example, we have a 9 year old rescue bitch, who is sired by Sherluck’s Shadow of Darkside (AKC # WP959736/06). Faye Straus had nothing whatever to so with breeding Sherluck’s Shadow of Darkside. Though she has bred many champions over the years, and owned what was once the Top Producing Bitch of all time, Ch. Moraga Hills High Fashion*, Faye never registered her Sherluck kennel name. Some guy just saw the kennel name in the 4th generation of the pedigree and used it. He was a "fabulous" breeder, ... never bothered to show or finish a dog, didn't need to, he knew it all. Our bitch was dysplastic **,:mad: he bred her littermate sister back to their "Sherluck" father… :mad: truly a "fabulous" breeder. In three generations his dogs were so unsound and had so many health problems that he quit Dobes all together.

Very few kennel names are registered. We can all probably register our dogs as Sherluck, Phillmar, Dabney, Eastwick, or Soquel… maybe even Cambria… just about anything we like. Andy, have a great idea… since you seem to want to put your stamp on a dog you've purchased, run out and buy a Cambria dog, call the dog “Cambria," then appropriate the Cambria kennel name and register it as Cambria’s Cambria v Cambria. Then get Ann to show it. And every time it walks in the ring, we’ll all think of you.:D

_____________________
* Note that because of her registered name, Ch. Moraga Hills High Fashion, we know immediately that Faye did not breed Fashion, that “Fashion” was bred by Moraga Hill and they deserve the credit for producing this valuable bitch.

** We never listed this rescue bitch’s OFA results on OFA because of the OFA’s format, which lists sire and dam. So, if we listed our dysplastic rescue bitch, the OFA records would then say that Sherluck’s Shadow of Darkside was the sire of a dysplastic bitch, which would make it appear that Faye had Sherluck dogs producing dysplasia. And before you ask, no we never bred her or intended to breed her. We had her x-rayed at 6 years of age, at the same time as we had all of our dogs done, i.e., we OFA'd every dog we owned at the time, and she was one. We were curious to see what her hips looked like. The hip dysplasia was a surprise. Weeks later, when we got the OFA results back, I contacted her breeder and that is when I got the follow-up on the demise of his breeding program.

andyhilt27

02-20-2009, 08:28 PM

Andy, have a great idea… since you seem to want to put your stamp on a dog you've purchased, run out and buy a Cambria dog, call the dog “Cambria," then appropriate the Cambria kennel name and register it as Cambria’s Cambria v Cambria. Then get Ann to show it. And every time it walks in the ring, we’ll all think of you.

I don't care to put my stamp on anything I have no more credit in than a breeder does. I have three problems with this thread.

First:

Breeders are giving themselves way too much credit as a breeder by being overly concerned with a dog's registered name unless they are of course using their kennel name as brand recognition. You know exactly where I am going with this....ahem, in it for the wrong reasons.

Second:

Breeders are given more credit for a dog's success for absolutely no reasons other than power and greed. Sure, it takes money, blood, sweat, and tears to mate a pair of dogs. What bodily fluids are expelled being an owner? The same, only in increased amounts. As far as money goes....you can count on spending around 10 grand just on food and vet expenses alone throughout the life of the dog. Add in the intial inflated puppy price due to brand recognition and the cost of breeding seems fairly cheap. With the contracts and co ownerships you might expect the breeder to pay half of these bills but they really don't want any part of the responsibility just ALL of the glory. On the average breeders help raise the puppies for 10-12 weeks. An owner provides for that same puppy 10+ years if they are lucky enough to have a doberman live that long. Come play fetch with Eva and tell me about blood and sweat.:D

The breeders role in all of this is no more substanial than that of the owners. It's a case of "the chicken or the egg." The credit belongs soley to the dogs. It should only be about the dogs. Not the buddy politics bullshit, breeder control, self empowerment via your dogs blah blah blah.

If you are a breeder improving the breed and doing the right thing what do you deserve? Other than the price of the puppy nothing. Do you need a reward for doing the right thing? "Oh thanks for not coming to my house and robbing me."

Don't think for a minute I don't know about the requirements of whelping a litter. I had to get my butt out of bed every few hours and feed puppies for days because mama wouldn't let them nurse thanks to her c-section. Who deserves the credit for that litter? My role was a walk in the freakin' park compared to what Tabitha had to go through. She's the one that pranced around a stupid ring for pieces of liver, was forced to have sex with a dog whom she met only moments before the deed, had to walk around fat for weeks, lost a son during labor, and had two crazy puppies attacking her teats everytime they were awake once she finally decided to feed them. But hey, I was the breeder, don't f*ck up the registered names I selected. YAY ME!!!

Third:

It's about the dogs. I don't care if the dog is named Andy's Piece of Sh*t or Elaine Bred Me, the judges don't know the kennel name........right?:rolleyes:

andyhilt27

02-20-2009, 08:31 PM

Also,

If someone were to purchase a puppy from me and followed through with their plans of putting a Schuntzhund title or the like on it I would think that might give them the right to add a little somethin somethin on the end.

Hey, that's just me trying to steal all the glory.:D

Elaine

02-20-2009, 08:58 PM

I don't care to put my stamp on anything I have no more credit in than a breeder does. I have three problems with this thread.

First:

Breeders are giving themselves way too much credit as a breeder by being overly concerned with a dog's registered name unless they are of course using their kennel name as brand recognition. You know exactly where I am going with this....ahem, in it for the wrong reasons.

Second:

Breeders are given more credit for a dog's success for absolutely no reasons other than power and greed. Sure, it takes money, blood, sweat, and tears to mate a pair of dogs. What bodily fluids are expelled being an owner? The same, only in increased amounts. As far as money goes....you can count on spending around 10 grand just on food and vet expenses alone throughout the life of the dog. Add in the intial inflated puppy price due to brand recognition and the cost of breeding seems fairly cheap. With the contracts and co ownerships you might expect the breeder to pay half of these bills but they really don't want any part of the responsibility just ALL of the glory. On the average breeders help raise the puppies for 10-12 weeks. An owner provides for that same puppy 10+ years if they are lucky enough to have a doberman live that long. Come play fetch with Eva and tell me about blood and sweat.:D

The breeders role in all of this is no more substanial than that of the owners. It's a case of "the chicken or the egg." The credit belongs soley to the dogs. It should only be about the dogs. Not the buddy politics bullshit, breeder control, self empowerment via your dogs blah blah blah.

If you are a breeder improving the breed and doing the right thing what do you deserve? Other than the price of the puppy nothing. Do you need a reward for doing the right thing? "Oh thanks for not coming to my house and robbing me."

Don't think for a minute I don't know about the requirements of whelping a litter. I had to get my butt out of bed every few hours and feed puppies for days because mama wouldn't let them nurse thanks to her c-section. Who deserves the credit for that litter? My role was a walk in the freakin' park compared to what Tabitha had to go through. She's the one that pranced around a stupid ring for pieces of liver, was forced to have sex with a dog whom she met only moments before the deed, had to walk around fat for weeks, lost a son during labor, and had two crazy puppies attacking her teats everytime they were awake once she finally decided to feed them. But hey, I was the breeder, don't f*ck up the registered names I selected. YAY ME!!!

Third:

It's about the dogs. I don't care if the dog is named Andy's Piece of Sh*t or Elaine Bred Me, the judges don't know the kennel name........right?:rolleyes:
Andy,

You seem upset… and I can see where you might feel you’re being picked on. In truth, you are. Please don’t be offended. While I don’t find your post even remotely persuasive, I am not offended with your opinions. You are very new to this, it is possible that you will be more persuasive in the future when you have a few more years under your belt. As it is, I am not clear that you understand much about showing or breeding. A lot of what goes on seems to fly right over your head. The mere fact that you attempt to equate your experiences in Rat Terriers with what is required to breed, show and finish Dobermans is very telling of your level of experience. Some of your comments might be relevant to the Kimbertall type of breeder or a puppy mill breeder, but you are completely disconnected from what motivates people like the DSNN members here. You are entitled to whatever impressions you’ve formed, I can only offer that you should hang in for a few more years, finish a few Dobermans… get a sense of what this is really about… and then re-read your post here. You may have an entirely different point of view.

No one here is going to argue with you if you choose to allow your puppy buyers to register the dogs you breed any way you like.

Quoted below is something I wrote about McNealy months ago on this forum:

“ - omitted-

As you read through what McNealy writes, keep this in mind, McNealy does not own, breed or show dogs, yet she can go on for about 1000 words on the whys and wherefores. You've gotta ask yourself, "How the heck would she know what motivates breeders? She ain't one!!!" Her name is not on the line as “breeder” on any litter. No dog show catalog lists her as breeder or exhibitor... on any entry. She could not become an AKC judge because she does not have the qualifications... all she has is a keyboard and a moronic agenda.

- omitted - Owning, breeding and showing dogs involves actually putting yourself on the line, to decide on a breeding combination, then to do the breeding, care for the pregnant bitch, whelp the litter, tend to all the puppy's physical and emotional needs, get them docked and cropped... clean up after them 24/7, train them, socialize them... and then, as time goes on, analyze who and what they are and carefully place them in homes you hope will be the right match for the individual puppy... then, as they mature further, you get them out and into the show ring... (or you encourage your puppy owners to get them out), to be judged again and again - with the best of the best in their breed... taking your lumps as you go, letting the ring be an objective arbitrator of whether your breeding was successful or not... after all of this, and after seeing the living results of what you’ve produced, you do it all again... for generations.... when you've done all this, you can sit back and throw darts if you like. Until then, you can't.

For those of us who have owned, bred and shown dogs, do you think for one minute we’re going to be impressed when this Bag-o-Gas McNealy comes along and tells us all why we do what we do. On what planet are her moronic biased theories of any value what-so-ever? Certainly not here on planet earth. To understand what motivates a breeder you have to breed. To understand what motivates people who show dogs, you have to show dogs. You have to put in the years and the hard work. You have to make the commitment and the sacrifices to pay for it all. You have to make owning, breeding and showing "the" priority in your life... over an extended period of time. Doing so gives you a credible perspective on why we do what we do. This is not a perspective you get sitting on the side lines while other people are doing the heavily lifting.”

andyhilt27

02-21-2009, 11:18 AM

Andy,

The mere fact that you attempt to equate your experiences in Rat Terriers with what is required to breed, show and finish Dobermans is very telling of your level of experience.

Some of your comments might be relevant to the Kimbertall type of breeder or a puppy mill breeder, but you are completely disconnected from what motivates people like the DSNN members here.

You are entitled to whatever impressions you’ve formed, I can only offer that you should hang in for a few more years, finish a few Dobermans… get a sense of what this is really about… and then re-read your post here. You may have an entirely different point of view.

Last I checked I own Toy Fox Terriers.

You are correct Elaine, it is solely the breeders and the magic wands they wield that produce great puppies.

Does it really matter what breed we are talking about? We all show against the breed standards. I tend to think it would easier to produce a BIS doberman than a TFT any day of the week for numerous reasons.

A sense of what it is really about? Hmmm....again it is not that difficult to figure out. Here goes.

First: Kiss a lot of ass (As you can tell I refuse to do this and I will not go far, oh well).

Second: Select a puppy. This is easy and deserves no credit.

Third: Kiss more ass while showing said puppy. Again this is easy as an owner and deserves no credit.

Fourth: After finishing the puppie's championship kiss more ass so you can mate her. Look at pedigrees and studs. Try to breed for health while maintaing show qualities. Take your bitch to your selected stud.

Fianally: You are a now breeder and have attained power. People will kiss your ass now. Promote the kennel with your brand recognition (kennel name). Shoo away all that want a puppy with no contract and wish to add their name at the end of the registered name. Oh don't forget to contradict yourself.

I wish I had more to time summarize the glories of being a breeder. Unfortunately I have a sick baby (pneumonia) and 4 dogs to take care of.

p.s. There is no one in the world of dog shows that can offend me. They can all just kiss my ass.:D

Elaine

02-21-2009, 11:44 AM

First: Kiss a lot of ass
...
Kiss more ass
...
kiss more ass
...
People will kiss your ass now.
...
They can all just kiss my ass.:D

We can all pretty much see where your head’s at here … you’re stuck at the wrong end of things.

Take a break… relax, take care of your sweet baby girl.
:)

andyhilt27

02-21-2009, 12:33 PM

Hey we can't always agree. I am not even remotely angry....merely a debate.:D

andyhilt27

02-22-2009, 12:53 PM

Ok let's split some hairs!!!

Say one owns a bitch on contract. The bitch is bred and the bitch's breeder is owed a puppy back. Technically I would see it as the intial breeder producing half of the DNA required for the litter thus wanting to put "v. I am a breeder" at end of the puppies name. I know they didn't pick out the stud or whelp the puppies or take the bitch to the show....but really what is the big deal?

I don't care either way honestly. As I said before I could have easily put von Hilt on Eva's name but it's about her not me. Apache's Edle Gottin Eva von Hilt. That has a nice ring to it! For those wondering Edle Gottin translates to Noble Goddess. Yes I picked it out. Does the name make her a noble goddess? I don't care what the dogs are named.

I once was upset over the mispelling of my name as a breeder. I look back and really question what credit do I deserve? The Ch. came out of my bitch. Yay for Tabitha!!! I am truely proud of her. I am curious if my parents are proud of me for this achievement alone.....Speaking of my parents. They told me I could be anything in life, so I chose to be an asshole.:D

Seriously,
All this hell raising about something as trifiling as a registered name....c'mon. What is this really about?:rolleyes:

doberdogsfd

02-22-2009, 01:46 PM

Bob and Cheryl,

I did a search on Blackwood Dobermans and it appears that the kennel name is taken. I don't know the rules or regulations concerning that. Just thought you might like to know. here is a link to an akc registered bitch
http://3bdobermans.com/NewFolder/Penny%20ped.htm

Actually we did several searches and researched the AKC requirements for kennel names and found that in FACT Blackwood has not been taken. One dog from a puppy mill like Kimbertal with the owners name used to register it does not constitute an actual Kennel Name. Here is the direct quote from the ACK:

The name may not have been used more than incidentally and rarely by other breeders or owners in naming dogs in the past 10 years. This will be verified through the AKC registration records.

However Cheryl did smile when she saw the pedigree as her very first Doberman which was a rescued bitch was bred by Kimbertal and the Grand Sire in the attached pedigree was the Sire of her bitch Zena. Kimbertal actual breeds very large Dobermans so it is doubtful that this bitch was ever shown, she may have been bred, but would have carried the Kimbertal kennel name as they put breeding contracts on many of the dogs they sell. Once we were at the Vet with our Flex who was 271/2 inches tall and 90 lbs in show condition and in walked a Kimbertal bitch that towered over him. She was about 30 inches tall. The lady asked if he was a standard Doberman because hers was a "king" or something to that effect.

What is my point you all may be asking? Just this, we are not concerned about one dog carrying the name Blackwood from a place like Kimbertal. We are secure in the fact that no one will confuse the lines or pedigree. We are also sure that we can legitimately use Blackwood.

But thanks for taking the time to look this up and for putting a smile on our faces.

Bob
~Blackwood~

Lou's mom

02-23-2009, 04:24 PM

- Owning, breeding and showing dogs involves actually putting yourself on the line, to decide on a breeding combination, then to do the breeding, care for the pregnant bitch, whelp the litter, tend to all the puppy's physical and emotional needs, get them docked and cropped... clean up after them 24/7, train them, socialize them... and then, as time goes on, analyze who and what they are and carefully place them in homes you hope will be the right match for the individual puppy... then, as they mature further, you get them out and into the show ring... (or you encourage your puppy owners to get them out), to be judged again and again - with the best of the best in their breed... taking your lumps as you go, letting the ring be an objective arbitrator of whether your breeding was successful or not... after all of this, and after seeing the living results of what you’ve produced, you do it all again... for generations....

You forgot the parts about:
* having puppies 'come back' cuz the placement didn't work out 2 years later when the owner lost their job or the puppy isn't 'cute' anymore
* coaching the 'pet quality' owners as they explore life with your puppy through agility, rally-o, search & rescue, or therapy/service dog training
* getting the phone call from a sobbing owner when dog succumbed to a fatal disease at an early age which could not be determined by all the testing you, and the breeder you got your stud dog from, had done.

My 2c... worth exactly what ya paid for it! :)

Elaine

02-24-2009, 05:53 AM

Absolutely… and more…

There are marked differences between the life-time commitment breeders here make, and the commitment of commercial breeders or high volume breeders. The people are motivated by the desire to produce the living expression of the very best characteristics of a given breed. It is a 24/7 multi-generational endeavor… and it takes a full measure of devotion. It requires that the breeder be there, day-in and day-out for the life of the dog. You can not be committed one day, and off in another direction the next.

In contrast, commercial breeders and high-volume breeders are focused on a stream of income. Their motivations and goals are directed towards increasing the market value of the product… or increasing the volume of production.

mosso

02-27-2009, 06:47 PM

ya know, I have an opinion on the subject of this thread (surprise!!).

I canNOT imagine expecting to put MY kennel name on dogs I did not breed. I don't understand breeders wanting to give away recognition of their efforts. I'm a big fan of giving credit where credit is due.

Take for instance, Breeder allows Buyer to sign on as Co-Breeder of litter, so that Buyer can show purchased pup in Bred By Class? This, to me, cheapens the meaning of "Breeder" (as represented by the purchaser), not to mention awards they may receive in the Bred By Class.

Or, another, Breeder is asked by Stud Owner (as a condition of use) to sign Stud Owner on as Co-Breeder of litter, in addition to stud puppy back (or worse, multiple stud puppies back). Wow. Considering the cost of raising a litter? No stud is worth that in my opinion.

I was helping someone (greatly!) with a litter (a breeder, who on paper had a co-breeding arrangement with someone else, which turned into a bloody mess) - a friend, of the breeder AND the co-breeder, asked "why don't you sign on as co-breeder?" I was flabbergasted at the suggestion. I had nothing to do with the planning of the litter, nor the dam's development or career, nor even the stud dog. Why would *I* be listed as co-breeder? Completely ridiculous in my mind. (It turns out the litter was in the end was attributed to one breeder, which taught me that not all folks keep their word, even when they've signed name to paper - so you bet I was glad I wasn't involved in the paperwork)

And, then there is the scenario where someone buys a dog, it either doesn't turn out in the buyer's opinion (and they return it) or the dog is returned for some other reason, and continues to bear (b/c it was shown and pointed) the first buyer's kennel name. ugh. especially if relations went south, or the breeder has another buyer for the dog.

I just don't see the point in "sharing" the credit - and if someone is buying a dog for the "right" reason, why would that include getting to put their name on it? This I truly do not understand due to possibility of calamity. And what, exactly, is wrong with "branding"? Branding should let you know what to expect.

(I'm not speaking, of course, of true collaborations - between breeders and they put both kennel names on the dogs).

anyway, that is my four cents :)
stir

Elaine

02-28-2009, 05:33 AM

as always.. love your 4 ¢ worth. :)

doberdogsfd

02-28-2009, 02:40 PM

Amen and well said!!

Cheryl
~ Blackwood~

Ann Lanier

02-28-2009, 05:14 PM

After much, MUCH research I bought a PEDIGREE as much as a puppy. I bought her outright. The puppy I bought was fourth pick bitch, but I saw something maybe others did not. Her co-breeders each wanted their kennel name on the puppy. That left 6 letters for me. So the puppy became Wynterwynd's Sierra Shadow. When we bred her later we used Sierra.

The puppy became a successful show dog; DPCA Best 9-12 Futurity Puppy, 2 times Top 20, #10 in the Working Group, BIS, BISS. (Bambi, handled by Gene Haupt.) Out of 11 puppies, she produced a Grand Prize Futurity winner and a DPCA Best Puppy.

I socialized her, I trained her, I found the right handler, I conditioned her, I did her nails twice a week, I chauffeured her, groomed her, I walked her until midnight in heat, rain and snow, because the Princess chose not to pee. I advertised her often in magazines and dog newspapers.

I paid the hefty 5 figure bill. There was no interest whatsoever from the co-breeder. And initially, fury from the breeder who wanted Bambi bred as soon as she finished her championship, since specialing dogs was a waste of time. What she said at the time was, I was making it harder for her, since I had advertised using her kennel name, "and now everyone wants another Bambi. Well, she is not the best thing I've ever bred, and I'll breed better than her again." (We never fought but I was hurt. We have since reconciled.)

So here is my point. BREEDERS are listed on the records, in the catalogs and on the ads. (Or should be.) They deserve all credit they get. However I did think that the breeders work ended at 12 weeks and she was well paid for that. MY work lasted for years, and I paid a fortune for that dog's success. With none or negative input from the breeders, I started advertising without using their kennel names, advertising Bambi, because I was spending all that treasure and effort advertising someone else's breeding program and incidentally pissing them off. This is another case for NOT co-owning. Obviously by that time I was planning to breed Bambi eventually.

I just wanted to put that out there as food for thought. Another point of view is that the breeders (without whom of course there would be no puppies to name) get their credit, in the catalogs and the registered names, but who decided the registered name ONLY signifies the breeder? Where does the owners 'credit' come? Isn't their contribution substantial and ongoing?

a

Elaine

02-28-2009, 05:32 PM

You make a very compelling argument… :) and it is true that the owner pays the freight... but they also get the glory and all those fabulous perks. :p Generally speaking, the owner (or the person paying for the advertisement) has control of the ad content and can emphasize whatever they like in an ad. Unless there is a specific agreement saying otherwise, the ad can say whatever the owner wants. It can read:

Logres’ Bippy Boo
owned and loved by Iv Got Bucks…

but the registered name of the dog should reflect who bred the dog, not who owns the dog. Often the only credit the breeder ever gets for the dog is that their kennel name was on the dog. How many people think of Kafka in terms of Phyllis?

I think an owner like Jane Firestone had it right… the fancy always knew who bred the great German Sheppards Ch. Covy Tucker Hills Manhattan and Ch. Altana's Mystic. Jane never asked that her name be attached. Same with Mrs. Alan Robson and Roger Reichler (may they all rest in peace). Sam Lawrence’s name should not have been on the AKC registered names of Ch LaShay’s Bart Simpson, CH. Registry’s Lonesome Dove or Ch. Brunswig’s Cryptonite... he didn’t breed any of those dogs. Beth and Carol Dowd and Cece Ruggles own and back many of the top winning dogs in the country, in a wide array of breeds and Groups, including the Clumber who went BIS at the Garden in 1996 and this year’s BIS winner at the Garden, Stumpy… but you don’t see their kennel names on any of them, they are owners/backers, not breeders.

There is something of a balancing act between the motivation of the breeder (who created the dog) and the owner (or backer) who funds promoting the dog. I strongly connect to the breeder’s motivation to promote dogs they produce… it is a way of validating the choices they’ve made, sometimes choices made over successive generations. A backer’s motivation is a bit different… it has more to do with the thrill of winning. There is a thrill to standing ringside and saying, "that one there is mine, I own him." In rare instances the owner might even be able to go so far as to say, "I alone saw his potential."

As I recall, Dr. Vanda Huber saw potential in Peggy Sue before everyone else. The world knows Peggy Sue as the Scottish Terrier who went BIS at Westminster in 1995, BIS BISS Ch Gaelforce Postscript, shown by Maripi Wooldridge. Vandra had been in Scotties for a considerable time before she purchased Peggy Sue. Vandra’s kennel name is McVan… she did not put her kennel name on Peggy Sue. Rather, Vandra and Dr. Joe Kinnarney spent a boat load of time effort and money showing Peggy Sue all over the USA, culminating in the BIS at the Garden. Btw, here is a link to info about Peggy Sue. http://www.mcvanscotties.com/Articles/pdfs/PeggyEuologyFinished_1.pdf

However much the owner adds to the career of the dog and the opportunities the dog has in the show ring, the purchaser is not the breeder. If I purchase a BMW, it is forever a BMW, even if I keep it well tuned and in mint condition for years… it is and will always be a BMW.

mosso

03-01-2009, 10:24 AM

andyhilt27

03-01-2009, 02:38 PM

Elaine

03-02-2009, 06:34 AM

Ann,
I agree and echo what you say. No owners without breeders. No breeders without owners. It is a matter of dual recognition. None more important than other in my opinion. Thank you for bringing experience to this thread as the theory of a madman has fallen on deaf ears.:D

I have not questioned or diminshed anyone's efforts as a breeder. On the contrary it will seem to others that this topic is breeder control or even brand recognition.

Again, this thread is a direct correlative to the breeder control thread. How one can be pro on this thread and con on the other is beyond me. No one wants to purchase on a contract or co ownership but when they sell it is a different story. A bit contradictory if you ask me. It brings up a line from the movie Clerks. "I believe in a ruling class, especially since I rule." A fantastically funny line, but it does hold a tremendous amount of truth.

I give my dogs a great environment and lots of love. I am capable of showing them. No contract needed. If one were to offer me a Westminster winning dog on contract I would have to pass. And to say I have zero input on a dogs registered name is very controlling. I don't really care what the dog's registered name is to be quite honest. But to ask for a large chunk of change, contract/co ownership, first breeding rights, and to contol all of the registered name is absurd.

Just my thoughts, and yes you did ask for them.:D

You’re talking apples and oranges here Andy. Putting Ann Lanier’s name on a dog is an honor… that is not the same as allowing a free-for-all, where every puppy buyer does as they please. Ann has a history in dogs and a proven track record. You have never even put a point on a Doberrman. Come back when you have finished a few Dobermans from your breeding and then tell us all about what your policy is.

Our commitment to the dogs we breed does not end with the puppy sale, we are involved for the life of the dog. We are very specific about each dog we sell, each is an individual. Some puppies have more involved agreements than others. We have paid the freight on dogs we sold… or part of the freight… and we are involved in their show careers and their lives. Males are a bit different than the females. I rarely sell a bitch, and it would be even more rare that I would sell one outright. I would really have to admire and respect a person and their track record in dogs to sell a bitch out right. There are people who have breedable bitches from me, like Brenna, Betty and Sheila, whom I love and admire. We had very specific arrangements with each of them. There are no surprises.

As for the thread about smothering breeders who manipulate and control co-owners... we were speaking of specific scenarios, not ones that you have been involved with because you do not yet have the experience in the breed to be at the same point as some of the posters to the thread. Again, apples and oranges. When people have years (i.e. a decade or two ) in the breed, including years of experience showing, and knowing when they have a breedable dog and when they don’t… then they have earned the right to have input.

In general, as a breeder, I do not after-the-fact try to control buyers or add after-the-fact stipulations that were not previously discussed and agreed. If I sold a bitch outright, I do not then go back and try to impose some inflexible control over how the bitch is bred. I may sell a bitch I bred with very specific stipulations that I want to retain control over how the bitch is bred… that is something that is agreed to before the bitch is sold. In that instance, I do control the choice of stud dog, though I work to find an stud dog that is mutually agreeable. It all depends on the individual agreement I have with each individual dog. I do not expect co-owners to foot the bill for any surprises… or for anything they didn’t agree to in advance.

Elaine

03-02-2009, 06:54 AM

Ann brings up another aspect of showing dogs, from the owner of a special.

For me, dog shows are about breeding stock, but at the level of All-Breed Groups and BIS, it's obviously NOT just about breeding stock anymore. (I hope in BOB that it's still about breeding stock...)

My thinking is, in campaigns of specials, you are advertising the DOG, period. The dog becomes an entity. I have a dog that I picked out/purchased/finished & I'm his sole owner - I keep meaning to special him (life keeps getting in the way) on a small scale - am I going to prominently advertise his kennel/registered name? no.

(advertising the kennel name with this dog makes little sense, b/c this dog's actual pedigree is about 3/4 foreign due to lease of a foreign bitch, and sire was sired by an import - his kennel name doesn't reflect his pedigree anyway).

But, my thinking is, regardless of whose name is on the dog, unless the goal of campaigning a dog is campaigning your kennel name (and for some it is), you wouldn't prominently advertise the registered name anyway (even if the purchaser's name were in the registered name).

How many future-specials are picked out by their purchasers at the age when they are named? (I mean to ask, how often does this happen?) How many of them end up on a couch?

(though obviously, I don't really care what consenting parties agree to do).

:)
Stir

I agree.. a special is a whole separate thing. Specialing a dog is about the package of Dog / Handler / Backer (money and connections behind the dog). I can’t think of any top winning dogs that were identified that way as puppies… most all are identified as having potential as a special after they are registered and often after they’ve been in the ring a bit. At that point any discussion about the registered name of the dog is moot.

In general, if the dog is truly a great one, they are not available to a novice with marginal financial resources and no experience campaigning a special. Backers, like Beth Dowd and the Scotts (and others, who have one top-winning dog after another), understand the commitment they are making and they have the financial resources to make a top winning dog. No one is going to intentionally sell a special to a newbie with no track record in the specials ring and no ability to fund the advertising, handler fees and show expenses.

Most backers do advertise the registered name of the dogs they back… it might not be the major focus of the ads, but it's there. And most breeders would kill to have a deep pocketed backer promoting their breeding. I would love to have Cosby (with McFadden ) backing Warkant… they could advertise him anyway they liked. :D (and at this point, to see any ground at all in the DOBE ring you’d pretty much need that kind of package :(). Stir, I'm guessing that you would not have been opposed to Roger backing you… though it seems to me that in your breed there are so many successful breeder / owner /handler combinations that a backer for you would probably include you showing the dog… (sort of like Chris Terrell with Pepsi years ago), which would have to be the greatest possible thrill in dogs.

andyhilt27

03-02-2009, 05:22 PM

mosso

03-02-2009, 06:44 PM

I'm sure if Roger had wanted to back a dog of mine (that I purchased, since I have yet to have a bitch produce a litter, and not for lack of trying), he would have wanted a better handler than me on it! :)

It does seem to me that Dobes are a whole nuther ball of wax, but Afghans are not too terribly different (our numbers being a contributing factor I feel) in that it is normally (at the big events) a well trained, well groomed dog with an experienced (and thus known) handler on the lead winning BOB, or placing in Groups.

why wouldn't a well groomed, well trained (aka ready-to-win) dog handled well, why wouldn't such a dog prevail, given the dog is what the judge is looking for? A judge can't possibly see something that the handler makes invisible (I've certainly seen handlers muck up their own dogs, I'm sure I have a few videos around here from my first shows in the classes to prove my point, hah!)

From the outside, I find the Dobe ring (specials) just a tad scary! maybe b/c Dobes have no hair to sculpt - everything is visible - and so with sufficient numbers allowing for a good selection, I think you've got a naturally very competitive scenario set up.

back to registration names - I don't really care who does what. Like you, I think if the agreement is made before the dog is sold, then it's all good.

(going afield, something I learned is that there needs to be a provision in any contract, of what the agreement is in the event the dog does not turn out - b/c man oh man, that can cause problems).

back on topic, with AKC pushing breeders to register entire litters, buyers naming dogs will likely (in my opinion) be a moot point if a buyer is purchasing from a show breeder.

stir

Elaine

03-03-2009, 10:58 AM

wow......

I don't need to point a doberman to have an opinion. I didn't think this thread was breed specific either. Please change your title if this is the case before you chastize me. We have indeed finished a bitch. What does the breed matter???? The level of politics is conceivably the only difference. I have been in this game for 5 years now. The wool is off.

I am quite sure I am not the only one that shares this view. Perhaps others are just too scared (I don't know what of) to voice it here on DSNN.

Perhaps I will start a forum where I can be right all of the time and damn all who disagree.:eek: Lighten up...it is a dicussion.

Where is Sophia's opinion on the matter? Where did Tosca go?

Did you only invite me to this forum to be a pawn in your game against McNealy? It seems like it.....I don't care to play anymore. She spread unconfirmed rumors about me....oh well. I am over it.

I know quite well that I have a subpar bitch. I don't expect to finish her. I have control, a vision, and a level of intelligence to breed what I want to breed for. With DCM being polygenetic I will keep my linebreeding to a minimum. Best of luck with your bionic genes friend.

Farewell

Andy,

I don’t have the time or patience to babysit you. If you want to leave; leave. If you want to stay; stay. If you stay, be civil. You seem to think that your opinions should be of value simply because you have formed an opinion. I can not connect to the merit of that way of thinking. When pushed, you have nothing to back up your opinions except that “ you think such and such.” You are all over the place with what you are doing and why. You now describe Eva as a sub-par bitch. That may indeed be true… but really, how would you know? You do not know how to evaluate her, you do not know how to show her… you do not even know how to stack her. People have offered you suggestions, which you smugly ignore. As I recall, you were talking about breeding Eva. She is an Inaqui daughter (he had no health testing to speak of)… you have no clue about genetic disorders… you have approached several people with Inaqui sons and grand sons about breeding to Eva… what on earth would you be doubling up on? You go on and on about how your opinion is of equal value to others here… yet there are no facts to back that up. You do not want to learn, you want to argue. No one can get through to you because you “know it all” ... yet you've never even put a point on a Doberman.

The fact that you attempt to equate finishing a TFT with finishing a Doberman is telling of your naïveté… they are not the same thing… not remotely. In the Doberman ring you are likely to be competing in the classes with current or future BIS specials… the quality of dog that it takes to win in Dobermans is much higher than what you can get away with in a breed like a TFT… the presentation in the Doberman ring has to be darn near flawless, the dog has to be in superb condition, and the Dobe Breed winner is usually competitive in the Group and in BIS. That is simply not true of breeds like the TFT.

Bob can probably tell you where Sophia went... and why... it has to do with an issue between them... but like most of what is said here, it would be so far over your head you probably would not understand. It’s rather obvious that I stand by Bob and Cheryl and that was probably not appreciated by Sophia and she left. So be it.

As you may know, Tosca wanted to ban you early on; you annoyed the holy crap out of her. I would not allow her to ban you.

Since you bring it up, I invited you to this forum and have thought you should stay because you reflect a huge segment of people interested in dogs. I have never edited what you say, even though sometimes you go well over the top ... and you know it. I have allowed you to be you. You can be endearing at times… and at other times you push the limits. It’s part of who you are. I think most of us have become very fond of you. You may not connect to this, but I would love to see you be successful in dogs and in life. You have a lot to learn… your enthusiasm at times is great, but you seem to want to jump into the deep end of the pool before you’ve learned to swim. You don't know what you don't know... yet you go boldly forward at 90 miles an hour. If that way of going through life works for you, great!!! Keep it up!!! As I said, stay or go, express yourself any way you like, but do not be surprised if I point out holes in your body of experience.

Ann Lanier

03-12-2009, 12:38 AM

I think this is an interesting thread! I am not sure a what circumstance I would think appropriate to add my kennel name to a 'bought' dog. As Elaine says, at the naming stage, who knows for sure it will be a special? In my instance with the advertising, the call name became familiar enough, people knew the breeder. But the breeder did have the knowledge and do the work of producing the pup...which is the first, most important step. All the serious bitch owners I have known are mulling over pedigrees and possible mates before the little girl falls over with her first bark.

Specialing is a different ball of wax. But how about a stud puppy where one owns the sire and wants to add his/her name? How about a co-breeding where each owner takes their pup? Sometimes I have seen the kennel names swap ends depending on who owned or registered the puppy.

I agree with Elaine that the name and who pays for what, who decides what, who picks mates, all that, is best and necessarily discussed and understood before the puppy changes hands.

The successful breeders know so much more about their line than anyone. They know best where they are going. Breeders know best the foundation genotype that may be affecting what the casual observers see and what genetic pitfalls lie beneath that glossy coat and therefore deserve the rewards when they get it just right.

I'm just stirring the discussion a bit to see what others think about this topic.

Speaking of reaping rewards from specialing, I have to laugh. I remember a Best In Show 'trophy' won by Indy (Ch Royal Tudor's Wild As The Wind). It was a huge 3 foot tall dark green wicker swan with a few canned meat products imbedded in Easter grass in the back. :D One we were so glad not to win was a gigantic brass elephant rampant. The ears must have made it two feet across, it had deep black wrinkles in the most unnatural places, and my guess it was made in a back alley in the orient where no one ever saw an elephant. Rewards might be in the eye of the beholder!

a

Elaine

03-12-2009, 05:44 AM

Speaking of reaping rewards from specialing, I have to laugh. I remember a Best In Show 'trophy' won by Indy (Ch Royal Tudor's Wild As The Wind). It was a huge 3 foot tall dark green wicker swan with a few canned meat products imbedded in Easter grass in the back. :D One we were so glad not to win was a gigantic brass elephant rampant. The ears must have made it two feet across, it had deep black wrinkles in the most unnatural places, and my guess it was made in a back alley in the orient where no one ever saw an elephant. Rewards might be in the eye of the beholder!

a

Eeek!!! :eek: The swan and elephant sound just awful. You have to accept them and carry them off with you, but where would you ever put them? They'd have to go directly to the yard sale.

A week ago Tuesday I got to see the Westminster Best In Show ribbon and the silver bow. Beth Dowd had them on display for the club's celebration of Stumpy’s win this year at the Garden. I may even have held to ribbon. For as long as I can remember, I have always thought that going BIS at the Garden would be a kick, especially if you could go breeder / owner / handler BIS.

But last week, as I was looking at the ribbon and the bowl a thought flashed in my mind, “What the heck did it cost in terms of time, effort and money to get Stumpy to the point where he won BIS at the Garden?" Exhibitors could save a bundle by simply getting a trophy maker to do up a purple and gold ribbon and then go out and buy a silver punch bowl. :D

bmgillespie

03-12-2009, 07:54 PM

Probablymore than I will spend on my three dogs in their life time. :D:D:D

Lou's mom

03-13-2009, 04:46 PM

The successful breeders know so much more about their line than anyone. They know best where they are going. Breeders know best the foundation genotype that may be affecting what the casual observers see and what genetic pitfalls lie beneath that glossy coat and therefore deserve the rewards when they get it just right.

I concur. Having been in the same 'line' of dobermans for close to 10 years, my rescue and a new foster are quite a surprize at times. I've become so accustomed to dogs with a particular type of temperment, who received their critical socialization from the breeder, that I literally forget that not all dobermans grew up like that.

Example: I can smooch on my re-homed Will all day long. Kissy kissy kissy kissy, and he just makes happy dober-purring sounds. Rescue girl Bella gets fed up after a couple kisses, and without any warning it's game over. :confused: She's like a cat - no lead-up to not liking a thing, just that hiss/scratch that felines do when petting time is over. To her dober benefit, she comes right back & loves up a little, like an apology for telling me I crossed her invisible line, but... strange.

And now the foster: Roxy girl desperately wants me to be on 'her' side of the house, but once I get there, she just goes outside, or eats a bone. Whoever heard of a 'static cling" dober??

So, to me, the kennel name gives me an idea of what the dogs temperment will be like. Change the name, and it's like starting all over w/a rescue or foster.